URD vs TRD Supercharger Info & Stats

[LSKustumz]

Its open loop, based on MAP and RPM determines the output of the 7th injector for the added fuel. The 7th doesnt introduce fuel at all in closed loop, it only kick on under boost.

It has its own internal map.

Its an AIC

All the tuning has been done at WOT
Justin

I had an AIC on my SR with the 7th, the truck pulled the fuel I put in. But this could purely be differences between years. So the AIC on your truck puts out an independent pulsewidth from the stock ECU based on boost? That makes sense. My TRD 7th I had on my SR was triggered by open loop as well, but was load based as well, not MAP.

So do you get a lean condition when under load but not WOT? Or can the injectors keep up? Also, what happens when your going up a hill load is greater than 80%, but your throttle position is 45% and your ECU goes into open loop and you have boost? These were some of the issues I had with my SR, (S-Runner).

 

[My68ur8trd]

I had an AIC on my SR with the 7th, the truck pulled the fuel I put in. But this could purely be differences between years. So the AIC on your truck puts out an independent pulsewidth from the stock ECU based on boost? That makes sense. My TRD 7th I had on my SR was triggered by open loop as well, but was load based as well, not MAP.

So do you get a lean condition when under load but not WOT? Or can the injectors keep up? Also, what happens when your going up a hill load is greater than 80%, but your throttle position is 45% and your ECU goes into open loop and you have boost? These were some of the issues I had with my SR, (S-Runner).

The stock injector hold up just fine up to about 3 psi (high RPM, not WOT, bypass partially closed)

WOT its tuned to 12.1 to about 3 psi and 11.1 from the on. ( roughly)

We dont have hills here:smile:, ill keep an eye out next time i go west though.

the URD AIC has its on internal injector driver, totally independent of the Stock ECU.

and from what I know, I dont think its triggered by open loop. Im pretty sure I could tell it to dump fuel at -20 mm hg at 700 rpm if I wanted :laugh:

Justin

 

[LSKustumz]

The stock injector hold up just fine up to about 3 psi (high RPM, not WOT, bypass partially closed)

WOT its tuned to 12.1 to about 3 psi and 11.1 from the on. ( roughly)

We dont have hills here:smile:, ill keep an eye out next time i go west though.

the URD AIC has its on internal injector driver, totally independent of the Stock ECU.

Justin

Oh I see. Yeah, with the AIC I had did me no good because I couldn't tune open loop where the fuel is truly needed. I got the truck up on the dyno and did numerous WOT runs and dumped milliseconds upon milliseconds of fuel at it only to see my AFR on my wideband and tailpipe not change and power go way down. But it would be fine in closed loop.

And the other thing that would worry me, is that when you go to different altitudes and load ranges where the oxygen content in the air differs. And you rely on your sensors to give you the proper data to the ECU to compensate for the differences. This is why the 3.4L guys had the FPR mod, where the Fuel Pressure regulator was routed to the airbox stock so it would see atmospheric pressure. The mod was to route your boost line to the regulator so the fuel pressure would go up with the boost. Also, the guys in the rockies take smaller pulley's to achieve the same boost levels as I do here at about 1,000 ft., so it makes me wonder how it would operate up there.

 

[My68ur8trd]

Oh I see. Yeah, with the AIC I had did me no good because I couldn't tune open loop where the fuel is truly needed. I got the truck up on the dyno and did numerous WOT runs and dumped milliseconds upon milliseconds of fuel at it only to see my AFR on my wideband and tailpipe not change and power go way down. But it would be fine in closed loop.

And the other thing that would worry me, is that when you go to different altitudes and load ranges where the oxygen content in the air differs. And you rely on your sensors to give you the proper data to the ECU to compensate for the differences. This is why the 3.4L guys had the FPR mod, where the Fuel Pressure regulator was routed to the airbox stock so it would see atmospheric pressure. The mod was to route your boost line to the regulator so the fuel pressure would go up with the boost. Also, the guys in the rockies take smaller pulley's to achieve the same boost levels as I do here at about 1,000 ft., so it makes me wonder how it would operate up there.

I ran the URD Fuel Kit on my 3.4 but i was a SL, but if you tune it to boost vs RPM you would use totally different parts of that map. 3k at 50"% throttle will not close the bypass all the way and I wont make my 3k max boost. Like you said for different load settings and different RPMs, I would have different boost levels. If you have a nice test course with alot of elevation change, I dont see why you couldnt street tune all the difference scenarios.


May not be realistic, but it theory it should work

P.S. this is a good discussion :top:

and above about 4.5k the stock fuel pump really falls off..

Justin

 

[samsc03]

Just curious,

something my truck did before the AFR calibrator for closed loop,

when in boost during closed loop do ya'lls truck stay at stoich or does the ecu add fuel? Mine used to stay lean until I hit open loop under boost.

What did you guys do to handle this,this 4.0 is even higher compression if I am not mistaken right? So adding fuel in closed loop to accomidate boost would be necessary or very beneficial wouldn't it.

When I originally had my truck tuned before the closed loop calibrator came out from URD the dyno shop always looked at the graph skeptical because they saw that it was lean at ?lbs of boost on the street and dyno before it clicked over to open loop. So when I got that URD piece and showed them they were like we were waiting for someone to address that issue/shortcoming with your tune. I loved it and would enjoy running in boost all the time now knowing it has a better AFR.

Sam

 

[LSKustumz]

I ran the URD Fuel Kit on my 3.4 but i was a SL, but if you tune it to boost vs RPM you would use totally different parts of that map. 3k at 50"% throttle will not close the bypass all the way and I wont make my 3k max boost. Like you said for different load settings and different RPMs, I would have different boost levels. If you have a nice test course with alot of elevation change, I dont see why you couldnt street tune all the difference scenarios.


May not be realistic, but it theory it should work

P.S. this is a good discussion :top:

and above about 4.5k the stock fuel pump really falls off..

Justin

I agree, excellent information.

We have a Superflow Dyno here that we use for the motorcycle side that I tune EFI cards for street bikes and dirtbikes and stuff. Its an Eddy Current type that can put a specific load on the bike and can simulate courses and stuff. I would imagine there is a automotive equivalent somewhere. That would be sweet. But then again, this is why the TRD reflash is good, it covers everything and no tuning involved for excellent gains and reliability.

Just curious,

something my truck did before the AFR calibrator for closed loop,

when in boost during closed loop do ya'lls truck stay at stoich or does the ecu add fuel? Mine used to stay lean until I hit open loop under boost. It stays at stoich in closed loop because that is what it is set to do. Any boost without proper calibration of the MAF and VE tables can be hazardous and crucially lean.

What did you guys do to handle this,this 4.0 is even higher compression if I am not mistaken right? So adding fuel in closed loop to accomidate boost would be necessary or very beneficial wouldn't it. Necessary! ANY added cfm needs fuel to go with it.

When I originally had my truck tuned before the closed loop calibrator came out from URD the dyno shop always looked at the graph skeptical because they saw that it was lean at ?lbs of boost on the street and dyno before it clicked over to open loop. So when I got that URD piece and showed them they were like we were waiting for someone to address that issue/shortcoming with your tune. I loved it and would enjoy running in boost all the time now knowing it has a better AFR. You should be able to tune closed loop to a certain point. I know the AFR that URD offered, (at least that I am familiar with) brought your AFR down to 13.5 and that was it. You can't tune closed loop without it. The reason you got better AFR with open loop is because your ECU dumps in A LOT of fuel then as a safety margin. That added fuel that was unnecessary brought you more towards the optimum ratio.

Sam

Hope that helps, but I think you are referring to a 3.4L right?

 

[samsc03]

yep,3.4

it was real big difference. 14.7 under boost to me is pretty darn lean,after seeing the results

 

[LSKustumz]

yep,3.4

it was real big difference. 14.7 under boost to me is pretty darn lean,after seeing the results

This was the dyno graph from my SR with the TRD 7th injector no URD stuff and the stock pulley. With headers and catback with cats. You can see AFR was pretty lean at the start, but this is also the point at which load is minimum. You can see I made good power with that AFR, but it bogged down later on in open loop.

 

[Gadget]

There are a few things that Doug Thorley rep posted that need to be corrected.

The TRD supercharger uses the Eaton M-90 rotor pack. It is the old 3 lob design. I corrected him in the past on this, but he keeps saying it is the newer 4 lobe TVS design and it is not.

The URD system does not require tuning. We do give the end user the ability to tune if he wishes. The tuning software is shipped with the kit.

He is completely wrong about not being able to tune open loop. Open loop is what is tuned. The 4.0 goes into open loop very early compared to the older V6 and pretty much any time the engine is in boost the ECU is in open loop. The URD Performance Calibration Unit that is shipped with the kit gives you full control over anything that you will ever need to tune with this system.

The URD system is not CARB approved. The only thing keeping it from being is we are waiting on a ruling from CARB on the carbon trap issue. Once they make their ruling on what aftermarket solutions will be accepted to replace the stock carbon trap we will be able to obtain a CARB certification. If we start shipping CARB certified kits the end user access to the ECU tuning will be locked down.

If you compare the unmodified URD kit to the unmodified TRD kit, the URD starts making more power than the TRD at around 2000 RPM and ends up in the 50 HP range more.

Installing the URD kit does not automatically void your trucks warranty. Just like installing a set of Doug Thorley headers will not.

The URD intercooler reduces charge air temp by 70 degrees. The TRD one reduces charge air temp roughly 20 degrees according to TRD.

Both systems are very nice. Which ever one you chose you will not be disapointed.

 

[LSKustumz]

Originally Posted by Gadget
There are a few things that Doug Thorley rep posted that need to be corrected.

The TRD supercharger uses the Eaton M-90 rotor pack. It is the old 3 lob design. I corrected him in the past on this, but he keeps saying it is the newer 4 lobe TVS design and it is not.

I could be wrong, but at SEMA this what Magnuson specified, and what Eation had at their booth as well.

The URD system does not require tuning. We do give the end user the ability to tune if he wishes. The tuning software is shipped with the kit.

He is completely wrong about not being able to tune open loop. Open loop is what is tuned. The 4.0 goes into open loop very early compared to the older V6 and pretty much any time the engine is in boost the ECU is in open loop. The URD Performance Calibration Unit that is shipped with the kit gives you full control over anything that you will ever need to tune with this system.

The URD system is not CARB approved. The only thing keeping it from being is we are waiting on a ruling from CARB on the carbon trap issue. Once they make their ruling on what aftermarket solutions will be accepted to replace the stock carbon trap we will be able to obtain a CARB certification. If we start shipping CARB certified kits the end user access to the ECU tuning will be locked down.

How many years has your system been for sale without CARB approval? Because of your end user tunability it will not be able to pass CARB. If you allow adjustments to pulse width or anything to do with the addition of fuel to the system it has to be above a specified RPM. Dobeck's controller is getting a EO right now for this, because the adjustment range is so small and high up in the RPM range that it will not effect emissions at that RPM level. I believe this is notified in [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Vehicle Code Section 27156 (VC 27156), I could be wrong.

You can look up a manufacture on ARB sites for EO numbers withheld by each company, here is the address

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermk...es/amquery.php

Here is a link to the ARB site for the 27156 regarding EO application.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/aftermkt.htm#ca


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If you compare the unmodified URD kit to the unmodified TRD kit, the URD starts making more power than the TRD at around 2000 RPM and ends up in the 50 HP range more.

I beg to differ. Here is the dyno graph of the TRD. Can you post the URD graph?

Installing the URD kit does not automatically void your trucks warranty. Just like installing a set of Doug Thorley headers will not.

This is the Moss Motor Act that you are thinking of. Headers are a performance market that has been around for years, and is AFTER the engine, does not affect the fuel curve of the stock ECU, have signal conditioners or calibrators attached to it. Your unit requires tying into the ECU does it not? And conditioning signals that are feeding into the ECU? Our headers do not. They just bolt on and flow. Although the PNP harnesses are SWEEET!! I think you are comparing apples and oranges there.

The URD intercooler reduces charge air temp by 70 degrees. The TRD one reduces charge air temp roughly 20 degrees according to TRD.

They claimed with the 3.4L a temperature drop of 32 degrees with the 7th injector setup, just squirting fuel dropped the temp, simple laws of thermodynamics. And you are saying their water-to-air intercooler is only doing 20 degree temperature drop? With the compression ratio of 10.4 they cannot afford to only have a 20 degree drop. There is a safety margin that must be accomplished in order for these to be warranted.

Both systems are very nice. Which ever one you chose you will not be disapointed.

Absolutely!! I am by no means slandering the URD kit, it is an excellent kit, with great adiabatic efficiency and top end power and design. It just depends where you want power, and maintaining smog legality and warranty. As with any product out on the market, all the facts should be laid out so the consumer can decide.

Gadget

 

[5H4D0WD347H]

" If you compare the unmodified URD kit to the unmodified TRD kit, the URD starts making more power than the TRD at around 2000 RPM and ends up in the 50 HP range more."

Can we see these claims on comparable graphs? Lets not forget that an unmodified TRD kit has no CAI and the URD kit does by its nature.

I think to be fair (and to compare apples to apples) we should compare a STOCK URD kit to a TRD kit with a CAI.

 

[RedXr]

i am staying way out of the way on this 1 :vroam:

 

[LSKustumz]

" If you compare the unmodified URD kit to the unmodified TRD kit, the URD starts making more power than the TRD at around 2000 RPM and ends up in the 50 HP range more."

Can we see these claims on comparable graphs? Lets not forget that an unmodified TRD kit has no CAI and the URD kit does by its nature.

I think to be fair (and to compare apples to apples) we should compare a STOCK URD kit to a TRD kit with a CAI.

Those your numbers DS? Impressive!! I did not realize that the intake was a standard item with the kit.

 

[5H4D0WD347H]

These numbers belong to Mike Hickman. He did a lot of research with the TRD kit. I have pages of his stuff, its good material. That graph is his run before and after the TRD CAI.

Yes the URD kit comes standard with a CAI (due to its design and placement it has to).


On your own website you claim 305 HP with a stock URD kit gadget. Here is 309 HP. Of course these are peak numbers and cant be compared anyway; however id be curious to analyze two graphs (even though unless they were done back to back its really pointless for nit picking).

We should get some kind of idea though, I wouldn't consider 50 HP nit picking really. Thats a huge claim.

Id be really interested to get two comparable graphs to discuss up here. Someone post some up please.

 

[the backpack]

does he have a site or something ??

 

[VaBchXRunner]

ntinhri and my68ur8trd ran the trd-urd dyno runs back to back. Numbers were just about the same to the wheels:dontknow:

 

[trd_sport]

Am I only the one that finds these comparisons pointless?????? There are so many variables in all this is isn't even funny anymore.:smile:
Can we compare a screw type supercharger to a turbo next:dontknow::laugh:
Has anybody run both these systems side by side as they come out the box with no other mods? IMO thats the only way to get a good comparison. 0-60 1/4 0-100 should all be looked at. The same driver would have to run each a few times then average the #'s for true consistent times.:top: Or are we simply talking who's sytem makes the most HP? :dontknow:

 

[DOGSTOY06]

I'm in your corner TRD sport. what if grasshoppers had machine guns theories:laugh:

 

[LSKustumz]

ntinhri and my68ur8trd ran the trd-urd dyno runs back to back. Numbers were just about the same to the wheels:dontknow:

Peak numbers maybe close. But when the power comes on, and when the peak powerband hits are totally different. The TRD doesn't peak, but maintains its torque, and builds boost immediately at the crack of the throttle, its the roots design. The rotrex, the way it is design builds boost to RPM, more RPMs more boost.

 

[RedXr]

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Exactly . A good driver could put down serious #'s with both these systems.